並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E9%98%BF%E5%96%84%E5%B8%AB%E9%91%91%E8%AD%98%E5%AF%A6%E9%8C%84/ep03%E5%86%A4%E6%A1%88%E5%95%9F%E7%A4%BA%E9%8C%84%E6%B1%9F%E5%9C%8B%E6%85%B6%E8%A8%B1%E6%A6%AE%E6%B4%B2%E9%83%BD%E7%84%A1%E7%BD%AA-%E5%86%A4%E6%A1%88%E8%AE%8A%E6%87%B8%E6%A1%88-bxmTXrl8L1c/