並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/tw/podcast/ep30-%E6%81%90%E6%80%96%E7%9A%84%E5%8F%8D%E5%90%8C%E5%BD%A9%E8%99%B9%E5%AA%BD%E5%AA%BD/id1530955400?i=1000509748642