並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E5%A4%A7%E5%80%AB%E6%9C%89%E5%A4%A7%E9%87%8F/ep30%E7%8E%8B%E6%B0%B4%E6%BA%90%E5%B0%91%E5%B9%B4%E5%AE%B6%C3%AA%E5%8F%B0%E8%AA%9E%E6%AD%8C-BDrub3awUE1/